Vertical mills... Buy once or baby steps?

[PatrickT]

About to purchase my first Milling machine. I've been making due with some pretty rudimentary tools, but have decent skill sets on fabrication & design, and since getting a lot of "hey, can you make me one of those?" requests, I figured I should dive right in.

There are soooo many options, and lots of constraints; budget, reliability, size etc, so please review my thought process and tell me where I should spend my wife's kitchen reno budget...

Objectives
-Prototyping parts in wood, composites & aluminum. Fabricating composites molds. Building tooling & modifying tools for CNC, DRO, etc.
-Primary focus is firearms restorations; long rifles, militaria,; this includes wooden & composite stock work (33" long), and lots of small, moderately precise metal work.

Plan A:
-Buy a used mini mill, like a king KC20 or similar clone, learn milling, setup and the CNC conversion process, then move up to a knee mill like a PM 900 series.
*This gets me into a mill, well equipped for under $3.5k, with little risk from damage during the learning curve, and offers a second mill available for projects when the larger mill is designated to a specific work scope. It limits initial production, but perhaps lets me gauge if a new shop space is in order, and what my requirements really are.

Plan B:
-Buy a used Craftex CX601, dress it up, then replace it once in a few years with a substantial and accurate CNC mill, either turn key or conversion style.
*This gets me into a somewhat capable machine, well equipped for $5.5K, that could potentially serve as a primary lathe for a couple years, and have good resale towards a larger setup, but tooling could potentially move to the new setup. A cost effective solution, but not really a huge savings on time, and will inevitably leave me wishing for bigger, better, I think.

Plan C:
-Buy a Mathews PM-949TV from the start, loaded to the gills.
*This will be a forever machine, but financially feasible through modest financing. I'll never want for more, but fear the initial $20k budget will grow exponentially as I try to build it up.

I'm not in a rush, but do want to dive into it. Any insight greatly appreciated.

Patch

 

[mmcmdl]

If no restrictions on space , I would be looking for a knee mill equipped with a ProtoTrac set-up . it's only xy and not z but you may never need it . Little Matsurra CNCs are out there and they'll run forever for a full blown mill .

 

[slow-poke]

My first mill was an old BB round column LC30. I paid $500 used it for about 5 years upgraded it and converted it to CNC. About a year ago someone on this forum posted a kiji knee mill on the members spotted thread and I purchased it for $2500 with tooling. Sold the old upgraded mill for $3500. Point being these machines tend to appreciate in price. I was happy with my old mill but I'm thrilled with the new one. The new one is actually 20-30 years old but is in pretty decent shape. I have since done a complete CNC conversion of the new one.

So you might want to see what's available on the used market and use the savings for tooling or other machines.

If you do decide to go the two mill route buy machines that can share the tooling, so for one thing look for machines with a R8 spindle.

 

[Engmaxx]

Having never owned a mill or used one, I jumped at the chance to buy an old Bridgeport. I made the space for it. Damn the budget because when that good deal comes, you take it and you only cry once. I refurbished it completely minus spindle bearings that are in good shape. Runs like a top, no benchtop mill limitations and plenty of ability to grow into. IMHO a dream machine for a hobby machinist but I only speak from my limited experience.

 

[PatrickT]

Having never owned a mill or used one, I jumped at the chance to buy an old Bridgeport. I made the space for it. Damn the budget because when that good deal comes, you take it and you only cry once. I refurbished it completely minus spindle bearings that are in good shape. Runs like a top, no benchtop mill limitations and plenty of ability to grow into. IMHO a dream machine for a hobby machinist but I only speak from my limited experience.

I feel like I'll need a starter mill, so that when I've got my dream mill in pieces on the shop floor awaiting candy red powdercoating and CNC conversion, I'll have something to fix all the stuff I broke getting it apart....

There is a beautiful Bridgeport knee mill nearby for sale, but with my limited experience, I'm weary I'll get taken for a ride on a busted relic.

 

[Engmaxx]

If you can run it before buying it, that will help the decision. Look at the ways for flaking wear. See what might be broken. It is easy to get parts from H&W. They are easy to work on.

 

[Proxule]

About to purchase my first Milling machine. I've been making due with some pretty rudimentary tools, but have decent skill sets on fabrication & design, and since getting a lot of "hey, can you make me one of those?" requests, I figured I should dive right in.

There are soooo many options, and lots of constraints; budget, reliability, size etc, so please review my thought process and tell me where I should spend my wife's kitchen reno budget...

Objectives
-Prototyping parts in wood, composites & aluminum. Fabricating composites molds. Building tooling & modifying tools for CNC, DRO, etc.
-Primary focus is firearms restorations; long rifles, militaria,; this includes wooden & composite stock work (33" long), and lots of small, moderately precise metal work.

Plan A:
-Buy a used mini mill, like a king KC20 or similar clone, learn milling, setup and the CNC conversion process, then move up to a knee mill like a PM 900 series.
*This gets me into a mill, well equipped for under $3.5k, with little risk from damage during the learning curve, and offers a second mill available for projects when the larger mill is designated to a specific work scope. It limits initial production, but perhaps lets me gauge if a new shop space is in order, and what my requirements really are.

Plan B:
-Buy a used Craftex CX601, dress it up, then replace it once in a few years with a substantial and accurate CNC mill, either turn key or conversion style.
*This gets me into a somewhat capable machine, well equipped for $5.5K, that could potentially serve as a primary lathe for a couple years, and have good resale towards a larger setup, but tooling could potentially move to the new setup. A cost effective solution, but not really a huge savings on time, and will inevitably leave me wishing for bigger, better, I think.

Plan C:
-Buy a Mathews PM-949TV from the start, loaded to the gills.
*This will be a forever machine, but financially feasible through modest financing. I'll never want for more, but fear the initial $20k budget will grow exponentially as I try to build it up.

I'm not in a rush, but do want to dive into it. Any insight greatly appreciated.

Patch

If money is no option, then PM hands down.
@John Conroy has a gorgeous machine from PM. After feeling how it smooth the ways slide and how quietly it runs. I melt just thinking of a nice new shiny machine from PM

Beyond that I think the more seasoned fellers can comment, better then my self any way.
Gluck either way!

 

[PaulL]

IMHO a dream machine for a hobby machinist but I only speak from my limited experience.

Yep, I agree. I jumped on a First 1 1/2 BP clone as my first mill and I have no regrets. I was able to jump right into some larger work but have not found any work too small to run on it, unlike with my lathe.

 

[LenVW]

About to purchase my first Milling machine. I've been making due with some pretty rudimentary tools, but have decent skill sets on fabrication & design, and since getting a lot of "hey, can you make me one of those?" requests, I figured I should dive right in.

There are soooo many options, and lots of constraints; budget, reliability, size etc, so please review my thought process and tell me where I should spend my wife's kitchen reno budget...

Objectives
-Prototyping parts in wood, composites & aluminum. Fabricating composites molds. Building tooling & modifying tools for CNC, DRO, etc.
-Primary focus is firearms restorations; long rifles, militaria,; this includes wooden & composite stock work (33" long), and lots of small, moderately precise metal work.

Plan A:
-Buy a used mini mill, like a king KC20 or similar clone, learn milling, setup and the CNC conversion process, then move up to a knee mill like a PM 900 series.
*This gets me into a mill, well equipped for under $3.5k, with little risk from damage during the learning curve, and offers a second mill available for projects when the larger mill is designated to a specific work scope. It limits initial production, but perhaps lets me gauge if a new shop space is in order, and what my requirements really are.

Plan B:
-Buy a used Craftex CX601, dress it up, then replace it once in a few years with a substantial and accurate CNC mill, either turn key or conversion style.
*This gets me into a somewhat capable machine, well equipped for $5.5K, that could potentially serve as a primary lathe for a couple years, and have good resale towards a larger setup, but tooling could potentially move to the new setup. A cost effective solution, but not really a huge savings on time, and will inevitably leave me wishing for bigger, better, I think.

Plan C:
-Buy a Mathews PM-949TV from the start, loaded to the gills.
*This will be a forever machine, but financially feasible through modest financing. I'll never want for more, but fear the initial $20k budget will grow exponentially as I try to build it up.

I'm not in a rush, but do want to dive into it. Any insight greatly appreciated.

Patch

What is your machining experience ?
What type of machine work are you wishing to do ?

I was a Tool & Die maker with Ex-Cell-O in the 1980s.
We had (12) manual machinists on 602 Knee Mills, a five station CNC department and (12) people grinding Carbide Inserts for boring bars and large milling heads. Most of our work was to support the larger Ex-Cell-O plant in London, Ontaro.
We also had access to (4) larger Cincinnati Horizontal mills and a couple of large lathes.

The dimensions of the items you want to machine will guide your decision. You will also be looking for something that will fit your shop.

I used all the machining centres at Ex-Cell-O but for my own use at home, I bought a Benchtop Mill that is 110/1/60, 3/4 hp with an R8 spindle that can accommodate many tooling arrangements and is mid-range cost wise.
A flycutter (1” Dia. with carbide inserts) and up to 3/4” HSS endmills handle the majority of my machining of shape components. Drilling and Tapping are done with ease.
I do not have to make any major electrical changes or install a hoist to move it in place.

I educated myself on full size knee mills and 25 hp heavy mills.
Now, I can carry out 90% of the operations that I did at Ex-Cell-O on my Benchtop mill.

Learn . . . before you spend a fortune on a full-size mill.

 

[Susquatch]

This gets me into a somewhat capable machine, well equipped for $5.5K, that could potentially serve as a primary lathe for a couple years, and have good resale towards a larger setup, but tooling could potentially move to the new setup.

Don't know if this reference to a lathe was a slip or deliberate. But it begs a comment.

Speaking mostly for myself, I'd get a good lathe long before a good mill. This isn't a universal sentiment, but I believe it is the majority preference.

I lived with a drill press and a small x/y table doing mill work and an old 1880s workhorse lathe. Then I upgraded the lathe to a modern gear head, then the drill press to a mill/drill, then the mill/drill to a big knee mill Bridgeport Clone. I'd still start with a lathe and get a mill second.

Basically, you can more easily do mill work on a lathe than you can do lathe work on a mill.

I don't begrudge those who like CNC, but I have no interest in it in my shop.

 

[Dabbler]

There are many ways to skin this cat. Only you can dictate what arc you are willing to live with. For those with ready cash, the easy choice is go all the way at once. Saves moving machines, possible retooling, selling your old machine, etc.

I started with an 8X32 knee milling machine until I outgrew it. Many guys will stop there. I bought it new, and sold it for about 1000$ less than I paid, after 12 years. (12 good years)

If your machining envelope is only ever destined to be very small, such as 3X3X3 inches, then buying a smaller mill is perfectly fine. These under-500 lb mills are far less rigid, but you can compensate and do good work.

I prefer to figure out how to finance the machine will be really happy with, rather than buying now what I can afford. If it proves inadequate, my enthusiasm is gone, and then it is a hard road.

 

[PatrickT]

What is your machining experience ?
What type of machine work are you wishing to do ?

I was a Tool & Die maker with Ex-Cell-O in the 1980s.
We had (12) manual machinists on 602 Knee Mills, a five station CNC department and (12) people grinding Carbide Inserts for boring bars and large milling heads. Most of our work was to support the larger Ex-Cell-O plant in London, Ontaro.
We also had access to (4) larger Cincinnati Horizontal mills and a couple of large lathes.

The dimensions of the items you want to machine will guide your decision. You will also be looking for something that will fit your shop.

I used all the machining centres at Ex-Cell-O but for my own use at home, I bought a Benchtop Mill that is 110/1/60, 3/4 hp with an R8 spindle that can accommodate many tooling arrangements and is mid-range cost wise.
A flycutter (1” Dia. with carbide inserts) and up to 3/4” HSS endmills handle the majority of my machining of shape components. Drilling and Tapping are done with ease.
I do not have to make any major electrical changes or install a hoist to move it in place.

I educated myself on full size knee mills and 25 hp heavy mills.
Now, I can carry out 90% of the operations that I did at Ex-Cell-O on my Benchtop mill.

Learn . . . before you spend a fortune on a full-size mill.

All great points- my objectives are in the original post.

I've got time on tools & CAD, from a variety of industries, including offshore oil & gas, mining, motion picture special effects and others. I'm no slouch, but Mills and Lathes constitute about 5% of my knowledge.

I'm going to grab a mini-mill, and probably a precision 6-8" bench lathe, but could really use some direction on tooling and such. I've been looking at the Tormach TTS stuff, and used precision vices & tables, but the neverending selection of cutting tools, DRO's, CNC drives and mills and their 200 chinese variants just stumps me.

I like the compactness of a mini mill for learning, but eventually having to chamber and flute barrels and such will require some heft, and significant precision.

 

[PatrickT]

Don't know if this reference to a lathe was a slip or deliberate. But it begs a comment.

Speaking mostly for myself, I'd get a good lathe long before a good mill. This isn't a universal sentiment, but I believe it is the majority preference.

I lived with a drill press and a small x/y table doing mill work and an old 1880s workhorse lathe. Then I upgraded the lathe to a modern gear head, then the drill press to a mill/drill, then the mill/drill to a big knee mill Bridgeport Clone. I'd still start with a lathe and get a mill second.

Basically, you can more easily do mill work on a lathe than you can do lathe work on a mill.

I don't begrudge those who like CNC, but I have no interest in it in my shop.

It was a slip, but I am looking at lathes as well. I use a drill press with a DIY x/y table now, and I've outgrown it.

CNC is more of a requirement for replication from previsualized designs, Respect to all the manual guru's out there, but the ability to show photorealistic renders to customers via email, and quote jobs quickly and precisely is the end game. I think this is why having a second, small mill is important.

 

[PatrickT]

There are many ways to skin this cat. Only you can dictate what arc you are willing to live with. For those with ready cash, the easy choice is go all the way at once. Saves moving machines, possible retooling, selling your old machine, etc.

I started with an 8X32 knee milling machine until I outgrew it. Many guys will stop there. I bought it new, and sold it for about 1000$ less than I paid, after 12 years. (12 good years)

If your machining envelope is only ever destined to be very small, such as 3X3X3 inches, then buying a smaller mill is perfectly fine. These under-500 lb mills are far less rigid, but you can compensate and do good work.

I prefer to figure out how to finance the machine will be really happy with, rather than buying now what I can afford. If it proves inadequate, my enthusiasm is gone, and then it is a hard road.

I fully concur. With a six month lead/supply chain delay on my dream mill(and lathe), I'll probably get a smaller mill in the interim as both a backup and learning tool, where process & fittings can be tested on a smaller, safer and more controlled scale.

I'm good with financing too, it makes business sense, especially when 0% loans are available for such items, and the retained value is high.

 

[Susquatch]

It was a slip, but I am looking at lathes as well. I use a drill press with a DIY x/y table now, and I've outgrown it.

I think most modern drill presses make really lousy mills so that's easy to understand. Mine is an old Beaver floor standing machine with side load bearings and a threaded chuck retaining collar so it was ok for my early needs.

CNC is more of a requirement for replication from previsualized designs, Respect to all the manual guru's out there, but the ability to show photorealistic renders to customers via email, and quote jobs quickly and precisely is the end game. I think this is why having a second, small mill is important.

That's not really hobby work anymore so I can easily accept that view.

 

[PatrickT]

I think most modern drill presses make really lousy mills so that's easy to understand. Mine is an old Beaver floor standing machine with side load bearings and a threaded chuck retaining collar so it was ok for my early needs.



That's not really hobby work anymore so I can easily accept that view.

This effort started off completely recreationally; I was the guy you'd call when something was broken, or when I couldn't find an off the shelf solution. But now, at 51 years old, I realize that being home on the tools, close to my wife, immersed in building and fabricating, is where I want to be. It's a complete departure from my current career, and I can't wait to sit every morning with a good coffee and figure out how to make beautiful things for my friends, who have turned into customers.

 

[PatrickT]

If you can run it before buying it, that will help the decision. Look at the ways for flaking wear. See what might be broken. It is easy to get parts from H&W. They are easy to work on.

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This did catch my eye.

 

[LenVW]

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This did catch my eye.

If you are into firearms and such, I would think you might be more interested in a versatile Lathe or Gun Drilling Machine for barrel work.
The Bridgeport is a well-known Knee Mill for a variety of ‘production’ metal shaping operations.
(Note: It weighs approximately 3000 lbs and usually requires 480 or 575v service)

After 30 years of mechanical engineering and project management, I keep one rule.
”What do you want to do with you machinery?”

Recommended Knee Mills:
FIRST Vertical Mill - 32 x 9
Ex-Cello-O #602
Bridgeport

 

[PatrickT]

If you are into firearms and such, I would think you might be more interested in a versatile Lathe or Gun Drilling Machine for barrel work.
The Bridgeport is a well-known Knee Mill for a variety of ‘production’ metal shaping operations.
(Note: It weighs approximately 3000 lbs and usually requires 480 or 575v service)

After 30 years of mechanical engineering and project management, I keep one rule.
”What do you want to do with you machinery?”

Recommended Knee Mills:
FIRST Vertical Mill - 32 x 9
Ex-Cello-O #602
Bridgeport

I have a lathe picked out, on the advice of Mr. Gordie Gritters; I took one of his courses last year. Barrels are mostly pre-rifled blanks, drilling full length blanks is not really required for the restoration work I do.

There seem to be good examples of Bridgeports local to me, that even with full restoration could be practical. I'll do my homework on them.