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Stepper motor size for power feed?

Megar arc 5040dd

Active Member
I have a RF45 clone and have been thinking about going the stepper motor route for power feed on the x and z axis. Not going CNC just power feed so I will have the normal acme lead screws still. I am wondering if anyone knows what size stepper motors this will require? Or if you know a simple way to figure it out? The stepper will be driving the lead screw with a pulley and timing belt similar to what Ades Workshop on youtube has done. I am also wondering if for the y axis if the motor should go on the top attached to the lead screw or on the side attached to where the crank handle is and drive the lead screw through the bevel gears or if it makes any difference?

I am open to any and all ideas and advice. I am hoping to make this a winter project.
 
It depends if your going to set it up with direct drive or with belt-pulley speed reduction?

Keep in mind stepper has max torque at zero RPM and the torque fails off with speed.
 
400oz in?
Less if geared perhaps.
Stepper loose Tq as the speed increases - food for thought.

Either way consider using the DM556 driver ( 10$ ), and functions flawlessly.
Or I guess if money is no option consider gecko drivers for 100-200$.

Gluck!
 
400oz in?
Less if geared perhaps.
Stepper loose Tq as the speed increases - food for thought.

Either way consider using the DM556 driver ( 10$ ), and functions flawlessly.
Or I guess if money is no option consider gecko drivers for 100-200$.

Gluck!
I will definitely look into the DM556 if they are that cheap. Money is as big factor I would like to do it for as cheap as possible. Is there any place you would recommend for getting DM556 or any other parts?
 
I’m using a 1600 oz/in NEMA34 on my mill, direct drive, DM860A driver, 60 volt 6 A power supply. More than enough grunt. Stepper Online on eBay sells all three pieces for about $280, if you hunt around online you could likely do it cheaper.

And with the driver Enable off I can easily use the handwheel while the motor is still connected.
 
I will definitely look into the DM556 if they are that cheap. Money is as big factor I would like to do it for as cheap as possible. Is there any place you would recommend for getting DM556 or any other parts?
Bought mine from aliexpress for 8 bucks ( on sale )
Like "whydontu" said. Another good option is the DM860 for more money. But seems like a wee bit overkill for your application. My DM556 HARDLY gets warm set for 4 amps.

A suitable power supply would be a 36v. Possibly a 48v but any fluxuations might take out the driver. For the DM860 a 48V supply would certainly be a good option!
 
Something else to consider if you will continue to use your hand-wheels. Steppers even when disconnected maintain a very clunky feel when you rotate them manually. So you will in all likelihood need some method to physically disconnect them when using the hand-wheels. Servos on the other hand offer no such resistance when electrically disabled (unless they have a brake).

BTW, I used 86hs115-4208-05, 1200 oz-in (~8Nm) steppers for all axis on my now sold round column mill. They worked fine if not trying to go fast. In comparison the 2.4 Nm servos I'm using on my new mill blow the steppers away in every way:
+ way way more usable power
+ silent instead of noisy
+ closed loop
+ I can jog at scary speeds with the servos

Picture of my old mill before I put the belt covers on...
MyMill1.webp
 
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Something else to consider if you will continue to use your hand-wheels. Steppers even when disconnected maintain a very clunky feel when you rotate them manually. So you will in all likelihood need some method to physically disconnect them when using the hand-wheels. Servos on the other hand offer no such resistance when electrically disabled (unless they have a brake).

BTW, I used 86hs115-4208-05, 1200 oz-in (~8Nm) steppers for all axis on my now sold round column mill. They worked fine if not trying to go fast. In comparison the 2.4 Nm servos I'm using on my new mill blow the steppers away in every way:
+ way way more usable power
+ silent instead of noisy
+ closed loop
+ I can jog at scary speeds with the servos

What is the difference between open loop and closed loop? I have seen this mentioned a few times. Also what is the difference between a stepper and a servo? Do they use the same controllers and everything else? Can I go with the cheaper option and at some point in the future just swap the stepper and servo or would that require swapping everything?
 
Generally Stepper's are open loop and servo's are closed loop.
Stepper motors turn a small fraction of one revolution for each step pulse received. Normally if the driver sends X pulses the rotor turns the specified number of revolutions. However if the stepper does not have adequate torque (remember torque falls off with speed) the motor can fail to step and so does not turn the target number of revolutions. When this happens the driving program has no idea the stepper did not go where itvwas commanded to go, it has no feed back, it's open loop.

Servo's are completely different they have a built in encoder that feeds back the precise rotor position to the driver. So lets say you command it to go 100.02 revolutions at high speed and at some point the required torque is greater than the servo can deliver, the servo will slow down but keep fighting to get where it's supposed to go, as the speed decreases the torque increases when it gets to the specified destination the feedback error signal becomes zero and the motor stops. If you physically force the motor away from that location it will automatically drive the motor back to where it was told to go.

I actually run my mill servo's with two feedback loops. The inner loop is as described above, and the outer loop uses the linear scales. So imagine I command the table to move 1.0000 inches, and the servo turns the appropriate revolutions to move 1.000" however if there is say 0.002" of backlash in the leadscrew and we just changed direction, then the table would be at 0.998" not 1.000", however the outer loop (using the feedback from the linear scales) would see that we're 0.002" short of the target and provide enough pulses to correct for that error. I typically hit the target +/- 0.0004"

Controller's are obviously different.

Servo's are almost always sold with the matching driver, so if comparing prices keep that in mind. Servo's until recently were generally cost prohibitive however there are now affordable servo's from Asia. One other thing is that servo's generally need to be tuned for optimal performance. StepperOnline has a new series of low cost servo's. They seem to work really well but their tech support sucks, thankfully no problems so far.
 
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Generally Stepper's are open loop and servo's are closed loop.
Stepper motors turn a small fraction of one revolution for each step pulse received. Normally if the driver sends X pulses the rotor turns the specified number of revolutions. However if the stepper does not have adequate torque (remember torque falls off with speed) the motor can fail to step and so does not turn the target number of revolutions. When this happens the driving program has no idea the stepper did not go where itvwas commanded to go, it has no feed back, it's open loop.

Servo's are completely different they have a built in encoder that feeds back the precise rotor position to the driver. So lets say you command it to go 100.02 revolutions at high speed and at some point the required torque is greater than the servo can deliver, the servo will slow down but keep fighting to get where it's supposed to go, as the speed decreases the torque increases when it gets to the specified destination the feedback error signal becomes zero and the motor stops. If you physically force the motor away from that location it will automatically drive the motor back to where it was told to go.

I actually run my mill servo's with two feedback loops. The inner loop is as described above, and the outer loop uses the linear scales. So imagine I command the table to move 1.0000 inches, and the servo turns the appropriate revolutions to move 1.000" however if there is say 0.002" of backlash in the leadscrew and we just changed direction, then the table would be at 0.998" not 1.000", however the outer loop (using the feedback from the linear scales) would see that we're 0.002" short of the target and provide enough pulses to correct for that error. I typically hit the target +/- 0.0004"

Controller's are obviously different.

Servo's are almost always sold with the matching driver, so if comparing prices keep that in mind. Servo's until recently were generally cost prohibitive however there are now affordable servo's from Asia. One other thing is that servo's generally need to be tuned for optimal performance. StepperOnline has a new series of low cost servo's. They seem to work really well but their tech support sucks, thankfully no problems so far.
What controller are you using?
 
Software is LinuxCNC (free) I really like it.
Hardware:

+ Mesa 7i95t, (nothing but good things to say about Mesa), I could have used one of their smaller boards but I wanted room to grow.
+ $50 Kijiji surplus PC
+ Not necessary (but I like to tinker) a simple custom control board with real buttons and a display. I just much prefer to push buttons than do mouse clicks. I'm just finalizing the design it will look something like this, except with labels on the 3D printed buttons if all goes well. The display is capacitive touch and will show status: feed and jog speed etc etc.and will allow for customization and new features as required. I'm writing a calculator function for it right now, no more reaching for the calculator. This will be mounted on the belt cover about 12" from my eyeballs when I'm using the machine.

1 USB cable to the PC and one Cat5 to the VFD, no wires.

Bored in retirement ya sure ;-)
E115-00.webp
 
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Software is LinuxCNC (free) I really like it.
Hardware:

+ Mesa 7i95t, (nothing but good things to say about Mesa), I could have used one of their smaller boards but I wanted room to grow.
+ $50 Kijiji surplus PC
+ Not necessary (but I like to tinker) a simple custom control board with real buttons and a display. I just much prefer to push buttons than do mouse clicks. I'm just finalizing the design it will look something like this, except with labels on the 3D printed buttons if all goes well. The display is capacitive touch and will show status: feed and jog speed etc etc.and will allow for customization and new features as required. I'm writing a calculator function for it right now, no more reaching for the calculator. This will be mounted on the belt cover about 12" from my eyeballs when I'm using the machine.

1 USB cable to the PC and one Cat5 to the VFD, no wires.

Bored in retirement ya sure ;-)
View attachment 51152
How are you accessing the linear scale data?
 
The Mesa card works hand in hand with LinuxCNC. So the linear scales connect to the Mesa board and the Mesa configuration tool tweaks the HAL file to send the scale data to LinuxCNC. If you're not familiar with HAL, it's another great LinuxCNC feature, it stands for Hardware Abstraction Layer and allows you to connect, configure and customize hardware interface to LinuxCNC. At first glance a HAL file looks like gobble gook but after you play with it a bit it's actually really straightforward and easy to work with.

I found another helpful piece on github called ArduinoConnector. This is a cool little Arduino project with a lot of features including a keyboard matrix that allows communication between an Arduino and LinuxCNC via the HAL interface. I used an Arduino for beta testing the concept, but my custom board just uses a $5 ARM processor (that emulates an Arduino). So the buttons on my board are scanned by the "Arduino" and pushes and releases, analog values etc etc are sent as messages via a simple USB connection to the PC running LinuxCNC. On the PC there is a little py script running that processes the messages and passes them to LinuxCNC. End result is super flexibility pretty much anything you can think of can be done usually in many ways. Lot's of fun for the tinkerer inclined.
 
What is the difference between open loop and closed loop? I have seen this mentioned a few times. Also what is the difference between a stepper and a servo? Do they use the same controllers and everything else? Can I go with the cheaper option and at some point in the future just swap the stepper and servo or would that require swapping everything?
Really long winded reply.

The fundamental difference between a step motor and more conventional brushed DC servo motor is how the winding and magnets are arranged. (AC Servos are a bit different again).
In a step motor the magnets are in the armature and the winding around the outside. There are normally 2 windings that you can think of as oriented 90 degrees to each other. (in simple terms).

Now to turn the armature you apply a voltage across the two sets of windings and that creates a magnetic field. (Pretend North is up and East is to the right). The magnetized armature orients itself and now is locked solid.

To now make the armature turn all you have to do is change the magnetic field of one of the windings. For example so now South is up and East is still to the right. The armature reorients itself to the new field by turning a bit. Do that again but with the East/west winding making the east west poles change. And again the armature moves a bit. And so on.

The magnetic poles in the armature and the windings are set up so there are 200 locked positions when both windings are energized in the various relationships to each other.

And there's the rub. To make the motor, turn the voltage across each winding has to be reversed in a timely manner.

Hopefully this information hasn't put you to sleep yet.

Now you need a bit of electronics knowledge for the next part which will explain why there are issues with stepper motors.

The windings have two ratings; resistance and inductance. The resistance determines what maximum voltage can be applied to the winding to create current flow that doesn't burn out the wires. Let's say it's a 12V motor and can handle 1 amp which works out to 12W of heat for each winding or 24W for both so it will get warm. Also the number of amps of current and the number of turns of wire (called amp-turns) is equivalent to the torque applied to the armature. So that 12V 1A winding might make 100 oz-in of torque and obviously then only 10 oz-in if 0.1A is going through the winding.

The second parameter is inductance. That's measured in milli-henri and is what restricts how quickly the current builds up to that 1A after the 12V is applied. It's not instant and the higher the inductance the longer it takes. Not only that since there is current flowing in say a clockwise direction through the winding changing the applied 12V to make it flow in the counter clockwise direction means first the existing current has to change to 0A and then build up again to 1A. That also takes time

Finally and this is the same thing that limits the speed of DC Brushed motors is when you make a motor act like a generator it creates voltage and current. So that motor that is turning through the magnetic field is also producing voltage of the opposite polarity to the applied voltage. Once that voltage matches the applied voltage the motor has reached top speed. Double the voltage, the motor doubles in speed. (more or less). This is called back emf for backwards electromotive force.

So that controller for the stepper motor has to keep changing the winding current fast enough to make the motor turn but if it changes to the next polarity before 1A is reached then the motor doesn't reach full torque and it's both the RPM and the inductance that restrict that.

And there's the reason stepper motor torque falls off the faster it goes.

One way around that is to wind the stepper motor coils to be say 1.2V instead of 12V. If you apply 12V to it odds are you'd melt the wires so you have to sense the current in the winding and switch it off it once the current reaches 1A. When the current drops below 1A the voltage is turned on again creating a chopping effect. The up side of all this is twofold. First with 12V applied the current climbs to 1A way faster so the steps to change current direction can happen faster and the motor turns faster while having torque at higher speeds.

Remember that bit about the generator and creating the reverse polarity voltage? Well if that motor is turning fast enough that the windings are creating 10V there's still 2 volts left over to try and push 1A into the windings. So where before the 12V motor stopped having current flow through the windings as the back emf increased we can now overcome that with the higher voltage.

I won't touch on micro-stepping in this long discussion. It's there not to make the motor more accurate but to make it run smoother.

The amazing upside of step motors is that you can run them open loop. The controller gets a step pulse with the direction pin set for clockwise and the motor moves 1/200 of a turn and stops. Send it 200 step pulses and you get a full turn. If the pulses aren't too fast then you can easily turn a lead screw and move the carriage without feedback.

The DC motors just have a voltage applied and the bushes route the current through the commutator into the windings so that the armature turns inside the magnetic field. Stall a DC motor and burn it out. So we know the applied voltage is way higher than the winding rating. But what limits the DC motor speed is that back EMF and you don't have any control to move it 1 turn and then stop.

That's why those types of motors require an encoder and feed back position into the controller so that it knows when the motor has turned 200 encoder pulses for one revolution and then stop the motor.

Again it's more complicated than that for both stepper and servo motors. To be able to get up to speed they can't get there instantly so they need an acceleration, steady speed and then deceleration. That's what the trajectory planner does with the CNC systems. It knows the distance is 400 steps or two revolutions of the motor. It accelerates up to speed in the first 50 steps or encoder pulses, then runs for 300 steps at that speed and finally decelerates slowing down the steps or applied voltage so the motor turns more slowly and then stops..

Anyway, because the stepper motors run within their parameter range and torque they provide a simple inexpensive method of machine control.
 
I think there may be some confusion of what I want to accomplish. I am not going to be doing a CNC conversion I just want power feed. From what I have read I don't think I want anything that is closed loop since I won't have a computer or software of any kind. I Just want an on/off toggle switch as well as a switch the change the direction or rotation and a potentiometer to control the speed. The stepper motor will be connected the the hand wheel of the table with timing belt so there will be a bit of wiggle room with the size of pulleys to increase torque. Just not sure what size of stepper I need in order to be able to move the table. I would also like to do the same thing to move the head up and down. Not sure what size stepper motor I would need for that as well. I assume it will need to be a little larger that the one for the table. I would also like to put in limit switches to stop it once it has reached the max point of travel to avoid a crash if I am not paying close enough attention.
 
I think there may be some confusion of what I want to accomplish. I am not going to be doing a CNC conversion I just want power feed. From what I have read I don't think I want anything that is closed loop since I won't have a computer or software of any kind. I Just want an on/off toggle switch as well as a switch the change the direction or rotation and a potentiometer to control the speed. The stepper motor will be connected the the hand wheel of the table with timing belt so there will be a bit of wiggle room with the size of pulleys to increase torque. Just not sure what size of stepper I need in order to be able to move the table. I would also like to do the same thing to move the head up and down. Not sure what size stepper motor I would need for that as well. I assume it will need to be a little larger that the one for the table. I would also like to put in limit switches to stop it once it has reached the max point of travel to avoid a crash if I am not paying close enough attention.
What I did for my South Bend Lathe to determine what size motor I required. I clamped this onto the end of the lead screw and then used a socket wrench and some weights to determine how many oz-in were required to cause the carriage to move.

I then doubled that value to handle the load of cutting and then looked at curves of motors to determine that torque point verses step rate.
TorqueTestAdaptor.webp

Alternatively find some people who have converted your mill to CNC and find out what kind of motor they are using. I used the same approach for the knee on my mill. However the 650 oz-in turned out to be too small for anything but a very very slow movement before it would lock up. I ended up changing to a 1200 oz-in and had nice motion after that.

However now I have AC Servos on everything.

Do remember stepper motors require a varying frequency while DC motors use a single frequency that varies the pulse width. So if you decide to use a stepper motor make sure you have a control that can very the frequency out based on Pot position and that you can't start them at medium or full speed.
 
Is there open loop servos? or just open loop steppers? I figure I need something that is open loop. I may have to take what I have learned on here and do some serious googling. I am sure I will have even more questions then haha.
 
if you just want power feed that you control with a switch operated by hand, you don't want a stepper motor. Stepper motors have to be controlled by electronics. you just want a regular AC or DC motor
 
Megar arc, I used 86hs115-4208-05, 1200 oz-in (~8Nm) steppers for the X, Y and Quill on my now sold round column mill. If they worked for me, they should work for you.

I used a $13 Princess Auto surplus Saturn Vue windshield wiper motor for head lift. I detested cranking the crank because I had to stand in an awkward position to crank it.

Action video
 
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