Machine Hydraulic surface grinder first run....

[TorontoBuilder]

Over the last two days I wired in a new 240 volt 30 amp circuit for the rotary phase converter, and the wired and tested the RPC, and today wired the surface grinder to the transformer.

Then we opened the back and cleaned old dried out grease from the vertical ways, and cleaned and regreased the lead screw to elevate the spindle. Then replaced all the hydraulic fluid and stuck some head stock oil in the spindle just to be able to test things out.

The hydraulic feed worked fine for a while, so we tested the spindle briefly. Then both together and things were running fine. Then I went to do a full cross traverse under power and at the end of the traverse I couldn't figure out how to change the direction of travel back out. I am unsure if the limit stop was hit but the surface grinder shut down and would not restart.

I tried turning it off and on repeatedly. I shut down power and checked all the fuses. I broke out the multimeter and tested the 600V 3 phase output. Everything was fine.

So after farting around I went to retry running the grinder. It ran and completed one traverse on two test parallels and at the end of the traverse shut down again. Would not restart.

so my theories are that there is a thermal overload shutting down the grinder, either because the spindle oil is too thick, or the hydraulic pump has shut down. Hand cranking the longitudinal feed is very stiff. Or maybe air in the hydraulic system... or something in the traverse direction change has a shut off we done grasp yet.

Tomorrow I'll try some more. Read the manual much more fully.

Likely we will do a little long delayed grinding work with this and then do full restoration.. there is a motor to raise and lower the head... it lowers fine, but bogs down after 6-8" lift of the head.

 

[Susquatch]

I agree that the oil is the likely problem. It's probably designed with a small factor of safety. Heavy oil, old grease, and excessive friction (or other loads) will bring it to its knees as easily as a pebble to Goliath's forehead.

 

[Tom Kitta]

If it is thermal overload then it is in control box and it would "pop" just press it down again and you can contiune.

No, to thick oil would not even touch it. I use ISO 32 in mine and the only thing that gets it angry is when I try to hog off metal as if it was a milling machine. Like taking heavy passes heating everything up and removing tons of metal.

The pump would not easily shut down either - I use ISO 32 here as well - mine takes like 20 liters or something crazy like that.

Make sure that you grinder voltage is appropriate - i.e. it needs say 480v and it gets 480v. Mine would easily throw thermal if it was run at 240v vs. what it needed 480v. Now with running on 480v she has way too much power.

2hp to the spindle and hydraulic pump is 1hp.

Make is "Churchill".

 

[Susquatch]

The hydraulic feed worked fine for a while, so we tested the spindle briefly.

I watched your video. Nice machine. Love the hydraulic traverse. Swinging that long traverse handle manually gets old really fast.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

If it is thermal overload then it is in control box and it would "pop" just press it down again and you can contiune.

No, to thick oil would not even touch it. I use ISO 32 in mine and the only thing that gets it angry is when I try to hog off metal as if it was a milling machine. Like taking heavy passes heating everything up and removing tons of metal.

The pump would not easily shut down either - I use ISO 32 here as well - mine takes like 20 liters or something crazy like that.

Make sure that you grinder voltage is appropriate - i.e. it needs say 480v and it gets 480v. Mine would easily throw thermal if it was run at 240v vs. what it needed 480v. Now with running on 480v she has way too much power.

2hp to the spindle and hydraulic pump is 1hp.

Make is "Churchill".

Yeah I know the contactors all have built in overload circuit. I didn't see any of them popped or feel like any phase had popped when I tested them.

One off thing is that when nothing else worked the coolant pump that is also 3 phase 550v would run

The voltage is one item I am considering but dont have much control over.

The motors are all 550v and the company that previously owned the surface grinder ran it off of 600v. They however had 3 phase power from hydro so the didn't have any differences between the phases.

When I used a multimeter I had some imbalance between the phases. High was 612v and the low leg was around 550v.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Yeah I know the contactors all have built in overload circuit. I didn't see any of them popped or feel like any phase had popped when I tested them.

One off thing is that when nothing else worked the coolant pump that is also 3 phase 550v would run

The voltage is one item I am considering but dont have much control over.

The motors are all 550v and the company that previously owned the surface grinder ran it off of 600v. They however had 3 phase power from hydro so the didn't have any differences between the phases.

When I used a multimeter I had some imbalance between the phases. High was 612v and the low leg was around 550v.

Well, then that cannot be your issue - phase imbalance would be a problem for electronics - for motors it may make them last a bit less if they are run hard.

Did your grinder exceed its limits - i.e. table travel? Mine does it occasionally and the table flies all the way left or right. Maybe yours did that and it has a disconnect.

Did anything change at all since you brought it home from where it was at - i.e. no one played with voltages or played with belts etc?

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Well, then that cannot be your issue - phase imbalance would be a problem for electronics - for motors it may make them last a bit less if they are run hard.

Did your grinder exceed its limits - i.e. table travel? Mine does it occasionally and the table flies all the way left or right. Maybe yours did that and it has a disconnect.

Did anything change at all since you brought it home from where it was at - i.e. no one played with voltages or played with belts etc?

Nothing was changed since it was purchased.

I'm thinking it is just something with how we are running it and the change in traverse we dont understand yet... because it is always happening at the end of the travel of the table towards the column

 

[Tom Kitta]

Nothing was changed since it was purchased.

I'm thinking it is just something with how we are running it and the change in traverse we dont understand yet... because it is always happening at the end of the travel of the table towards the column

So it happens when you are doing full sweep - like full 18" to say grind the chuck? - on video I can see smaller movement multiple times and it feels fine.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

So it happens when you are doing full sweep - like full 18" to say grind the chuck? - on video I can see smaller movement multiple times and it feels fine.

The cross traverse... not sure what that is supposed to be called.

I think I figured out my issue. The drive gets shut off and the interlocking device prevents the restart... and we don't/didn't know how to move lever 14 to position "o"... it is not marked.

I also didn't know to start the spindle motor several times in order to get the spindle bearings covered in oil

 

[Tom Kitta]

Well, at least you know for sure its an interlock.

And you have a manual! I do not have one for mine.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Well, at least you know for sure its an interlock.

And you have a manual! I do not have one for mine.

yeah I would not have bought it without a manual, since it is obscure grinder.


there are still translation issues and organizational issues where instructions refer to numbers of diagrams but there are so may diagrams and they're all differently numbered.

but I'll figure it out...

 

[Tom Kitta]

yeah I would not have bought it without a manual, since it is obscure grinder.


there are still translation issues and organizational issues where instructions refer to numbers of diagrams but there are so may diagrams and they're all differently numbered.

but I'll figure it out...

I googled mine again and the manual from Lathe UK site is like 200 CAD.

But by accident I found that I need way lighter oil in my spindle - like ISO 10 - 18.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Today we did a test and ran the hydraulic table alone to test. The hydraulic pump seems to operate fine until we turn on the travel of the table. The table will run about 3 minutes and then cuts out. I say the hydraulic pump alone seems to operate fine because we failed to test it for a long run with no load from the table.

We should have done the same test with just the pump running for a long duration. For that matter we should have done the same test with just the spindle running to check it the other overload is behaving the same on both contactors. I doubt it is... but hey why not test anyway? But we didn't.

Usually the next step would be to reset the thermal protection after the heater element has cooled and then clamp an amp meter around one of the motor leads and test the draw when the pump is running without a load and then under load. That would be the smart thing, but we skipped that step and went right to the "let's take this sucker part" step.

We did that for two reasons. I surmise that the motor is drawing too much current when pushing the table, because the table feels stiff under manual handwheel, and when pushed from the end. I did push the table back and forth a whole lotta times and got a ton of air out of the hydraulic system. But that was stiffer than I believe it should be too. I think what is wrong is the filter in the hydraulic circuit is full of gunk obstructing the flow of fluid causing high amperage draw on the motor which in turn is tripping the overload.

So, off went the magnetic chuck, off came the table... and then we could see just how filthy and gunky the oil was in the oil return sumps.

Tomorrow we plan to take the table, chuck and a bunch of panels to the car wash to hose them down thoroughly... I really want to figure out how to remove the carriage as well, to check those ways out as well and clean underneath. But I dont have a service manual...

I also want to pump out the hydraulic fluid sump and run some sort of cleaner through all the lines. Do they make a cleaner that wont degrade hoses?

So much grit and gunk in the t-slots and everywhere else. One divot in the magnetic chuck too... going to use ceramic filled epoxy to fill that and then resurface the chuck when we remount it.

I love the clearance this grinder has. I can grind some really tall items.

I think I can even regrind this surface once we get it cleaned up better. We're going to do full resto eventually. I'd like to do it right now.

Preparing to lift off the table... bracket on each end of the table, under the engine leveler.

easy peasy lemon squeezy... lovely and level

That's all for today, need to break out the super bright worklight and a pump to go further.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

One thing that makes me confident that the motor is not really drawing huge amps over the rated capacity because I timed the time it took to trip on the overload.

Every time it took at least 3 minutes to trip, which means it is drawing about 1.5 times to rated amperage, or likely less. Which is another reason why I'm inclined to think it is dirty filter in the hydraulic loop

 

[Bandit]

If you have a clamp on ammeter, clamp on around a power lead and watch reading while another turns on motor, should be a fairly high draw to start, then drop for normal operating. If filter is plugged, amp reading will start to climb as filter is pressureized and motor/pump have to start working harder to push oil though filter. A pressure gauge put in line between filter and pump would show pressure increase while running also.
How easy is it to get to filter? In the sump? I have changed many filters in equipment where it was nearly solid or in some cases nearly non existent from water in oil causing rust and acids etc. from the oils. Also check hoses for blockages, I have once found a hose that would flow one way, but not the other as liner had broke down and formed check valve in the hose. Also caused poor English, etc. LOL.
Luck getting it all cleaned up.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

If you have a clamp on ammeter, clamp on around a power lead and watch reading while another turns on motor, should be a fairly high draw to start, then drop for normal operating. If filter is plugged, amp reading will start to climb as filter is pressureized and motor/pump have to start working harder to push oil though filter. A pressure gauge put in line between filter and pump would show pressure increase while running also.
How easy is it to get to filter? In the sump? I have changed many filters in equipment where it was nearly solid or in some cases nearly non existent from water in oil causing rust and acids etc. from the oils. Also check hoses for blockages, I have once found a hose that would flow one way, but not the other as liner had broke down and formed check valve in the hose. Also caused poor English, etc. LOL.
Luck getting it all cleaned up.

almost all of the hydraulic lines and connections are in the base and accessed through little hatches. Tiny little hatches IMO, it is dark under there too...

60 passage magnetic filter, swing away hatch 59 to access.

Remove the lock screw and apparently pull out a filter assembly?

54 lock screw
55 filter inset
56 knurled nut
57 filter sleeve
58 O-ring

 

[Bandit]

Not sure, but appears it may have an over pressure/bypass built in. Check hole in side of filter sleeve body for blockage also (if that is what I am seeing). Hate small hatchs on things like this.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

At least the manual tells me what solvent to use for the wheel head...

every 3 months you're supposed to open the drain plug and rinse the head with pure kerosene... then refill with ISO2 spindle oil....

I will make a fitting to pump in kerosene and fitting that inserts into the drain hole to direct the kerosene back into a container.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Brother's SUV died, he suspects the engine went.

So no getting to the car wash today to pressure wash some of the major components.

No high on the list of projects is to replace the engine. I keep saying buy a newer vehicle. Without that we can't tow a trailer or move any equipment. Just when we were making some very good headway.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Sadly the grinder didn't come with this accessory... with almost 24 inches of travel there would be so much I could cylindrical grind. I think I can get a used bench center and repurpose it for this...

In the meantime I just need to make do with a few punch formers I have... and I can make a tail stock for each grinding fixture to provide even more support... and a longer ground base would be nice