Oxy/fuel rig

[DavidR8]

I wanted to add oxy/fuel capability to my shop.
I looked at a couple of rigs for sale and was under impressed.
So I sourced a used oxygen tank and today I picked up a set of used Victor 350 torches and regs.
I think I got a sweet deal: two torch bodies, one with built in flashback arrestors, and brazing, cutting and rosebud heads.
Picked up new Type T hoses as I’m planning to use propane as fuel.

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[YYCHM]

Where did you get the skills to run this stuff?

 

[DavidR8]

Were did you get the skills to run this stuff?

I'm completely self-taught. I read voraciously and watch videos like a maniac. I've probably watched 75+ hrs of TIG welding videos. Likewise machining.

I'm hyper-safety conscious so I start slow and careful by doing small jobs, like heating and bending so I get a feel for the torches and how they work.

 

[francist]

I don’t think I’d ever even heard of oxy-propane before you brought it up but I’m not big on that end of things. I’ve had a brand new propane forge for almost ten years already and I have yet to fire it even once (resist exclamation mark). I am looking forward to your progress though, it’ll be a learning experience for me too.

-frank

 

[Johnwa]

We used oxy-propane in a cutting torch on the farm. The tip on the torch was different for propane. We never welded or brazed with it though.

 

[DavidR8]

We used oxy-propane in a cutting torch on the farm. The tip on the torch was different for propane. We never welded or brazed with it though.

Thanks John, I picked up a propane cutting tip today at my LWS.
I am curious to try welding so I may pick up an acetylene tank also.


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[Chicken lights]

Oxy-acetylene- you light the acetylene then add oxygen

Oxy-propane- you need to have both oxygen and propane flowing before lighting

Other than that they are pretty similar, besides the above mentioned tip difference

I was told there was no oxy-propane brazing tip available, I’m curious how the rosebud torch works

 

[DavidR8]

Oxy-acetylene- you light the acetylene then add oxygen

Oxy-propane- you need to have both oxygen and propane flowing before lighting

Other than that they are pretty similar, besides the above mentioned tip difference

I was told there was no oxy-propane brazing tip available, I’m curious how the rosebud torch works

I can get a oxy/propane rosebud attachment, looks like part MFN vs. MFA which is for acetylene. I may be able to just swap the tip.
The Victor info on brazing tips is a bit harder to decipher. I will call ESAB to get some clarity.

 

[PeterT]

David, do you already have acetylene setup or you are looking to augment with non-acetylene fuel? I'm kind of going through a similar pros & cons thing myself so interested to hear your rationale. First off the long term goal is to get a TIG setup specifically for welding (probably your exact machine haha)

But on the torch front, in another post I was asking about acetylene bottles specifically for a brazing/heating torch like this. So the fuel commitment is just acetylene because torch uses ambient air. So not quite as hot as A-O so not suitable for welding. But I figure if I ever went to A-O setup, it would be a complimentary add-on to get the oxygen bottle & regs in the classic A-O setup.
https://www.riogrande.com/product/smith-silver-smith-acetylene-and-air-torch-kit-without-tank/500105

Then in the propane/air world, this torch seems to get high marks for hobby use; silver soldering, brazing, annealing... but I suspect maybe a bit lower heat than above given same tip, but I'm only guessing there. Use a BBQ style bottle or larger if you wish & again no separate oxygen.
https://sievert.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sievert-Pro-86_ENG.pdf

Then there is the non acetylene 'fuel' + oxygen systems. Maybe I am not digging deep enough or looking at the wrong products but it seems like the oxygen addition (unless its a conventional A-O system) can get either spendy on a volume equivalent or specialized to their setup. So if you commit to a conventional oxygen bottle from a welding supplier, why bother with a fuel other than acetylene?

ps on the A-O front, I know some guys that swear by this torch. Spans the range from jewelry to welding tubing frames for aircraft.
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/

 

[DavidR8]

David, do you already have acetylene setup or you are looking to augment with non-acetylene fuel? I'm kind of going through a similar pros & cons thing myself so interested to hear your rationale. First off the long term goal is to get a TIG setup specifically for welding (probably your exact machine haha)

But on the torch front, in another post I was asking about acetylene bottles specifically for a brazing/heating torch like this. So the fuel commitment is just acetylene because torch uses ambient air. So not quite as hot as A-O so not suitable for welding. But I figure if I ever went to A-O, it would be a complimentary add-on to get the oxygen bottle & regs in the classic A-O setup.
https://www.riogrande.com/product/smith-silver-smith-acetylene-and-air-torch-kit-without-tank/500105

Then in the propane/air world, this torch seems to get high marks for hobby use; silver soldering, brazing, annealing... but I suspect maybe a bit lower heat than above given same tip, but I'm only guessing there. Use a BBQ style bottle & again no separate oxygen.
https://sievert.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sievert-Pro-86_ENG.pdf

Then there is the non acetylene 'fuel' + oxygen systems. Maybe I am not digging deep enough or looking at the wrong products but it seems like the oxygen addition (unless its a conventional A-O system) can get either spendy on a volume equivalent or specialized to their setup. So if you commit to a conventional oxygen bottle from a welding supplier, why bother with a fuel other than acetylene?

ps on the A-O front, I know some guys that swear by this torch. Spans the range from jewelry to welding tubing frames for aircraft.
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/

Hi Peter, I don't have an acetylene setup so just trying to sort out what necessary to run propane.
The Rio Grande torch looks interesting though I think to add oxygen you would need a completely different torch. Otherwise I don't know how that torch would mix the acetylene and oxy.

My thinking on propane is that I can get a 20lb tank at the corner gas station for $20 vs $70 for a similar sized acetylene. So the low cost of propane is attractive. That said it takes approximately three times as much oxy to run propane vs acetylene. I exchanged my 125 cu ft oxy tank yesterday for $33 at my LWS so that's pretty cheap. Does it offset the low cost of the propane? Hard to say but I doubt it.

 

[YotaBota]

I would expect that if it was more cost effective to run propane the welding shops would use it more and we'd have heard more about it. Propane is a colder flame (if you can call 2800c colder) than OA (3100c) so it will take longer to heat things up thus using more gas. And like you say it takes three times as much oxygen so there probably isn't any cost saving so it comes down to your experience and comfort level. All you can do is try them and see which works better for you.
David - I have OA if you want to set up a test to compare the two systems.

 

[DavidR8]

I would expect that if it was more cost effective to run propane the welding shops would use it more and we'd have heard more about it. Propane is a colder flame (if you can call 2800c colder) than OA (3100c) so it will take longer to heat things up thus using more gas. And like you say it takes three times as much oxygen so there probably isn't any cost saving so it comes down to your experience and comfort level. All you can do is try them and see which works better for you.
David - I have OA if you want to set up a test to compare the two systems.

Thanks for the offer!
I am a bit on the fence. My torch set is all oxy/acetylene so if I go to propane I need different tips for heating, cutting and as @Chicken lights noted brazing also. The cutting tip is cheap <$15, and I already bought one. The rosebud heating head is not cheap but I think that I can use a different head on the same 'wand'.

 

[PeterT]

>The Rio Grande torch looks interesting though I think to add oxygen you would need a completely different torch.

Yes that's exactly correct. The torch is acetylene only (or plus ambient air if you want to state it completely) so there is no conversion kit to add oxygen. What I meant was if I eventually bought an O-A torch setup like the MECO, at least I would have the acetylene tank.


> My thinking on propane is that I can get a 20lb tank at the corner gas station for $20 vs $70 for a similar sized acetylene. So the low cost of propane is attractive. That said it takes approximately three times as much oxy to run propane vs acetylene. I exchanged my 125 cu ft oxy tank yesterday for $33 at my LWS so that's pretty cheap. Does it offset the low cost of the propane? Hard to say but I doubt it.

OK, that's what I was wondering. When I called one of the local welding suppliers that I referenced in my prior post, there was a charge for the tank (essentially a 5 year term) and of course charge for the gas when filled up. I actually didn't ask how much oxygen cost because I was just inquiring about acetylene at the time. So you are saying $33 for the (oxygen) gas itself?

 

[Chicken lights]

I would expect that if it was more cost effective to run propane the welding shops would use it more and we'd have heard more about it. Propane is a colder flame (if you can call 2800c colder) than OA (3100c) so it will take longer to heat things up thus using more gas. And like you say it takes three times as much oxygen so there probably isn't any cost saving so it comes down to your experience and comfort level. All you can do is try them and see which works better for you.
David - I have OA if you want to set up a test to compare the two systems.

Back when I was doing a lot of heavy cutting I estimated it at one 20 lb (BBQ) propane tank to 10 K sized (largest size) of oxygen

It used to be $50-60 for a tank of oxygen, and $20-25 for propane, whereas acetylene was around $100
Plus every hardware store and gas station has propane when needed. No tank purchase or rental fees for an acetylene

I always hear oxy-propane is unsafe or doesn’t get hot enough or whatever. I know one salvage yard that used oxy-propane for 30 years, and most salvage yards around here that’s all they run. I would think businesses would look at numbers pretty close on consumables, especially stuff like cutting torch gas that they use a lot of.

But that’s primarily cutting. I never plan to braze anything, my cutting torch is strictly a cutting torch, I can’t use any other heads

 

[DavidR8]

>
OK, that's what I was wondering. When I called one of the local welding suppliers that I referenced in my prior post, there was a charge for the tank (essentially a 5 year term) and of course charge for the gas when filled up. I actually didn't ask how much oxygen cost because I was just inquiring about acetylene at the time. So you are saying $33 for the (oxygen) gas itself?

Yes, I bought a used tank from a member local to me and took it to Barry Hamel my local welding supply.
Total cost was $33 for a full exchanged 125 cu ft tank. That's $3 less than KMS advertised price for a 110 cu ft tank.

 

[DavidR8]

Back when I was doing a lot of heavy cutting I estimated it at one 20 lb (BBQ) propane tank to 10 K sized (largest size) of oxygen

It used to be $50-60 for a tank of oxygen, and $20-25 for propane, whereas acetylene was around $100
Plus every hardware store and gas station has propane when needed. No tank purchase or rental fees for an acetylene

I always hear oxy-propane is unsafe or doesn’t get hot enough or whatever. I know one salvage yard that used oxy-propane for 30 years, and most salvage yards around here that’s all they run. I would think businesses would look at numbers pretty close on consumables, especially stuff like cutting torch gas that they use a lot of.

But that’s primarily cutting. I never plan to braze anything, my cutting torch is strictly a cutting torch, I can’t use any other heads

Yes, my needs are heating and cutting. I can't see myself welding though brazing is an option. I do have TIG available but I've never tried it for brazing.

 

[Chicken lights]

That’s my setup. The cart was $70 at Praxair, can’t hardly make it for that price

 

[Brent H]

@David_R8

most of the ship yards and fly by night repair/ship work folks are Oxy/propane - it’s a lot cheaper and most of the ship yard cutters/fabbers are pretty unskilled and wasteful. Makes perfect sense to use cheaper consumables like gasses etc for jobs.

for @Chicken lights set up It makes perfect sense as the poor lad is always on the road. -

what is the pressures you are dealing with for the propane? Acetylene is only about 5psi for thicker stuff - do you need to run the propane higher?

 

[Janger]

Mr. safety comment
David your regulators might have flash back arrestors but I do not see any on other pictures. The Rio grande torch seems to be missing it too. I was told by the weld instructor they are required in Alberta anyway. Be a good thing to add to any torch setups.

 

[Chicken lights]

@David_R8

most of the ship yards and fly by night repair/ship work folks are Oxy/propane - it’s a lot cheaper and most of the ship yard cutters/fabbers are pretty unskilled and wasteful. Makes perfect sense to use cheaper consumables like gasses etc for jobs.

for @Chicken lights set up It makes perfect sense as the poor lad is always on the road. -

what is the pressures you are dealing with for the propane? Acetylene is only about 5psi for thicker stuff - do you need to run the propane higher?

I should look but I want to say 5-10 psi on propane and around 50 psi on oxygen