Tool 5C Collet Chuck

[thestelster]

I've been humming and hawing about getting a 5C collet chuck for my lathe. I want a new Hardinge Sjogren chuck....that's not going to happen any time soon! I narrowed it down to either Bison or Accusize, 5C with integrated D1-5 mount. Accusize: $422.00
Bison: $1,881.86
I'm a poor starving artist, and with all the positive comments on this forum about Accusize, I decided to get it yesterday.
Cleaned it up, installed the cam lock pins, adjusted them for the proper bite onto the spindle. Measured my lathe spindle run-out: The face is 0.0003"; and the tapered section is 0.0002" Accusize warns that to get their stated run-out of 0.0006", your lathe spindle run-out should be no more than 0.00016", and 0.0002" respectively. So my spindle face is almost double what they want.

 

[thestelster]

I then cleaned off all surfaces and marked the chuck from 1 to six. Installed the chuck and measured the run-out at the chuck/collet mating surface. Removed the chuck, and rotated it to the next pin, and measured again, and went through all the positions, thoroughly cleaning every time.

 

[thestelster]

Once I found the best position, I marked the chuck. Then put in a 1/2" Lyndex collet, inserted a ground 1/2" rod, and measured run-out of the rod close to the chuck, and 3" away. Run-out near the chuck: 0.0008"; and 3" away: 0.0012". So given that my lathe spindle face is almost twice their recommended tolerance, I'm happy.

 

[DavidR8]

Well done.
I managed to get a decent 5C off eBay and got similar results.

 

[thestelster]

Hey, do you guys put the 5C chuck key in a cordless drill/driver to speed up install/Uninstaller the collets? Torque?

 

[Susquatch]

Hey, do you guys put the 5C chuck key in a cordless drill/driver to speed up install/Uninstaller the collets? Torque?

Very nice @thestelster!

I got the Bison version ten years ago. There was no accusize version back then. It's my favorite chuck and lives on my lathe more than any other.

I optimized mine exactly the same way that you did with similar results. I'm VERY HAPPY with it.

I use a small compact 12V Milwaukee Driver to open and close mine. It will tighten plenty enough to use as is. It beats the crap out of opening and closing it by hand.

 

[PeterT]

That runout is pretty close to my Bison D1-3 integrated 5C collet chuck when I had it. So perhaps select Asian models are catching up quality wise, or maybe the planets aligned on this particular one. Hard to know unless you had several to compare but good for you, saved a lot of money. Lower TIR usually requires an adjustable Set-Tru type system. Bison's Set-Tru plate is quite expensive. Gator is a less expensive Chinese version of Bison. They call theirs Tru-Set but is interchangeable. But Gator is not as common up here so USA & shipping etc. & slightly lower overall quality IMO.

I also use a shop made key in a 1/4 hex type M12 Milwaukee cordless driver set on low torque, just to speed up collet tightening. When it clutches out I hand tighten the last bit (equally on on all key slots).

 

[DavidR8]

Hey, do you guys put the 5C chuck key in a cordless drill/driver to speed up install/Uninstaller the collets? Torque?

I don't but only because my chuck is very easy to spin so I can turn it very easily.

 

[PeterT]

I seem to recall that not all 5C chucks are created equal meaning the scroll & pinion pitch. A coarser pitch would result in less turns to close a collet whereas fine would be he opposite. But its not a commonly listed parameter. They sometimes just say 'fine' but that's relative between manufacturers of course.

 

[thestelster]

I've used the chuck now for a couple little jobs, so as a bit of a follow-up: the finish of the whole unit is good, the accuracy is good, the fit not so good. The screws are pretty rough, the pinion and scroll feels like they were made by hardy Canadian beavers! (rough). The indexing pin which aligns the slot in the collet is rough, so you have to jiggle it quite a bit to seat the collet before the threads will engage. Same with removing the collet. I do have a Bison three jaw chuck and the fit of the pinion and scroll is smooth. But at 1/4th the price of a Bison unit, I'm sure I can live with it. I'm sure everything will smooth out with time.

 

[gerritv]

or take it apart, debur/clean and improve it? I haven't had to on mine so far but will consider it this year as part of my take-a-break-from-work-i-need-to-think-about downtime at some point.

 

[thestelster]

or take it apart, debur/clean and improve it? I haven't had to on mine so far but will consider it this year as part of my take-a-break-from-work-i-need-to-think-about downtime at some point.

I probably will eventually, when I have some spare time....yeah, right! Might as well use it for a bit and do a bunch of jobs first.

 

[PeterT]

Its really hard to speculate on Asian 5C chucks because they seem to vary & come under different, often meaningless labels. Some of the ones that I've seen dismantled have what I'll loosely call stamped or forged scroll patterns. Not that this process in itself is bad, but seems like tooth accuracy & geometry varies from ok to bad. If its cut accurate & happens to have some debris or burrs, that's pretty straightforward to remedy in the home shop. But if the tooth form itself is partial or otherwise distorted, that will be a trickier remediation job. Basically all you can do is remove material in select areas & that has obvious limitations. Never hurts to have a looksee though. Price to Value ratio is of course a personal thing. Once upon a time, Bison was considered a lower cost, good quality alternative to other N-Am & Euro brands at the time. But over the years, prices have increased substantially & many Asian player since entered the market.

 

[Former Member]

I recently exchanged a 5c collet chuck with Accusize for two reason, one my fault (ordered the wrong size) and second one collet I tested just didn't fit (it was in tolerance but the chuck was just a touch to tight).

Accusize exchanged no problem and advise that they had upgraded to upgraded the chucks as they had issues, There attention to their customers is bar non the best.

So Asian can be good through the right suppliers.

 

[whydontu]

One of the great things about this forum is there are people here who are much more fussbudgetty than I am. I have one of the Little Machine Shop 5C chucks on a BB B2227L lathe. I never bothered to check the runout, it just seemed to be OK and most of my tasks can best be described as meatball machining. I assume that my gear is second-rate.

But after reading this thread, and since I just moved the lathe, I decided to check the runout.

0.0005” runout against the inner taper of the chuck. 0.001” runout against the nose O.D.. I don’t have any tight-tolerance bar, so I grabbed a 6” long x 1/2” diameter boring bar and stuck it in a collet. Measuring about 1/2” from the collet nose, the bar runout was less than 0.001”. It was WAY out at three inches away from the chuck, but I suspect I could correct that by some mild adjustment while tightening the collet.

I even tested the runout of the body of my 3-jaw, and it’s less than a thou. 3 thou on the same 1/2” boring bar held in the three jaw.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think these are probably perfectly acceptable results for this size and grade of machine.

 

[thestelster]

If I may be so bold as to say that 90% of the time, who gives a rats ass as to how bad your run-out is. If you have to make a part that's 0.940" in diameter, with a 0.436" hole in the center, you'll chuck a 1" bar and turn it down, and bore the hole to the exact dimensions you want, (as long as your lathe runs true). No problem! The problem occurs if you remove that part, and have to re-chuck it to do another operation on the lathe, then all bets are off. So moral of the story, make it right the first time. We all want zero runout, but that's a pipe dream. Sorry for my raving rant, its Friday night.

 

[Susquatch]

One of the great things about this forum is there are people here who are much more fussbudgetty than I am. I have one of the Little Machine Shop 5C chucks on a BB B2227L lathe. I never bothered to check the runout, it just seemed to be OK and most of my tasks can best be described as meatball machining. I assume that my gear is second-rate.

But after reading this thread, and since I just moved the lathe, I decided to check the runout.

0.0005” runout against the inner taper of the chuck. 0.001” runout against the nose O.D.. I don’t have any tight-tolerance bar, so I grabbed a 6” long x 1/2” diameter boring bar and stuck it in a collet. Measuring about 1/2” from the collet nose, the bar runout was less than 0.001”. It was WAY out at three inches away from the chuck, but I suspect I could correct that by some mild adjustment while tightening the collet.

I even tested the runout of the body of my 3-jaw, and it’s less than a thou. 3 thou on the same 1/2” boring bar held in the three jaw.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think these are probably perfectly acceptable results for this size and grade of machine.

I think they are just fine.

You didn't define "way out at 3 inches", but a boring bar is not a very good indicator rod, so I would not expect low runout anyway.

The rest is kinda what many on here (including me) are finding.

Just wondering if you indexed your 5c chuck to find its sweet spot.

I think the main problems with runout are usually the result of re-chucking. Almost anything will work if you don't remove and replace the part. I find that my 5c chuck handles that assignment quite well. But a 3 jaw, prolly not so well. Even so, how many times do you really need to do that? That said, I find that indexing the part (putting a mark on the chuck and the part) helps quite a bit.

Bottom line - what are you trying to do? Somethings are worth a lot of extra effort, most are not.

Edit - just saw @thestelster 's post. He must have posted while I was writing. Sorry for the overlap.

 

[Susquatch]

Just a quick followup.

I think it would be worth getting a decent indicator rod to check your runout. Not because more precision is important but rather because I think it's good to know what your real runout is. It may well be that your collets are part of the runout equation. If your chuck is like mine, you can back off the indexing key and rotate the collets to check them.

As @thestelster says, it's crazy to chase precision that isn't needed, but at the same time knowledge always trumps ignorance. I like to know what my limitations are and I like to experiment to further improve my knowledge. This all despite the fact that most of my work involves farm equipment that works just fine at 25 thou one way or the other!

Although I like the precision of my C5 collet chuck, I'm in love with its convenience.

I prolly have lots to learn about machining operation sequence to preserve concentricity. In fact I prolly have lots to learn about sequence in all machining operations.

I am planning to try and make a universal grinding wheel adapter with an integrated balancing ring for my surface grinder. It will require a little precision, test my ability, and perhaps also teach me a thing or two about sequence.

 

[Susquatch]

Can you send another photo? I can't open it.

Sorry, it's not obvious what you are looking for.

Which photo, in what post, by who?

If you click on the "REPLY" button under the post you are referring to and ask your question there, the poster will get a notification and will have a better idea of what you need.

 

[chip4charlie]

Accusize Canada has a "used" (returned?) one with DI4 camlock for sale at 25% off: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/165294387453?hash=item267c5030fd:g:7t0AAOSwBz1h6sxg